ayy that umbrella :3

Natani says trans rights!

Hell yes!

Why are some people so insistent on having a character who only views herself as male because of literal intensive brain damage be a posterboygirl for trans rights?

Presenting: A case study on opening a can of worms

emilio5033 said:
Jason Fischbach has never announced she is trans nor she really is one. Just because her gender is male and her sex is female doesn't exactly mean she is trans instantly unless it is approved by him, the creator of Twokinds Jason T. Fischbach. So i don't know if you want to push this as true, but it really isn't

If his sex is female and his gender is male, that means he is necessarily trans. Even if it's for magical reasons. That's what being trans means. It's not really up for debate.

post #1833973

reian said:
Not true. Trans-gender, meaning "one who is transitioning between genders", is really only true of someone who is changing from male to female or vice versa. Trans is not a gender, it is a phase of gender transition. Whilst they are transitioning they are trans, once they have completed their transition they are whichever gender they transitioned to or, if you must label it as something different, inter-sex.

Someone whose sex is male but who believes themselves to be female would, if you really need a label for it, be gender dysphoric.

"trans-" as in "transition" (although it seems it's not the only option) does not imply that you can use that prefix only towards people who are in the active process of transitioning.
just like a transatlantic cruiser is "trans-" even if it's at the moment docked in either of the ports.
you're IIRC the first person i've ever seen who said that "once you finish your transition you stop being trans" lmao.

and people are of the gender identity they are before, during, and after HRT/surgeries - not only after.

and intersexuality is an entirely different set of conditions.

reian said:
Trans-gender, meaning "one who is transitioning between genders",

Can you tell me where you got that definition from?

Merriam-Webster:
of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

dictionary.com:
noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s sex assigned at birth:

wiktionary:
Having a gender (identity) which is different from the sex one was assigned at birth: being assigned male at birth but having a female or non-binary gender or vice versa; or, pertaining to such people.

clandestine01 said:
Presenting: A case study on opening a can of worms

Welp. This was one can of worms I regret opening.

It’s interesting. I’d always thought presenting Nat as Trans was odd to me as well, I had no idea the sentiment was shared this widely.

The reason that makes me question it is different to yall. When she had to magically restore part of her soul using Zen, one of the pieces she got from him was his Male mentality and identity. The part that makes her want to be male literally isn’t part of her, just “software” she’s borrowing from her brother.

Always weird to find the places transphobes hide away in. Somebody who is biologically female and presents in every part of his life as male is, in fact, transgender. If you want to be the weirdo who insists on looking in somebody's pants before you'll just call them something that's fine, just know that's why people avoid you

not a transphobe but why are people suddenly talking about trans rights

edit: nvm saw the umbrella colors

reian said:
Not true. Trans-gender, meaning "one who is transitioning between genders", is really only true of someone who is changing from male to female or vice versa. Trans is not a gender, it is a phase of gender transition. Whilst they are transitioning they are trans, once they have completed their transition they are whichever gender they transitioned to or, if you must label it as something different, inter-sex.

Someone whose sex is male but who believes themselves to be female would, if you really need a label for it, be gender dysphoric.

ffs no why do so much people believe this? trans is a latin prefix that roughly mean 'across'. Being transgender is not about undergoing a transition it means your gender and what you were assigned at birth doesn't match.

charliebright said:
It’s interesting. I’d always thought presenting Nat as Trans was odd to me as well, I had no idea the sentiment was shared this widely.

The reason that makes me question it is different to yall. When she had to magically restore part of her soul using Zen, one of the pieces she got from him was his Male mentality and identity. The part that makes her want to be male literally isn’t part of her, just “software” she’s borrowing from her brother.

Gonna regret opening my mouth here but...
Natani is an interesting case as (and I'm using this to avoid treading on toes as much as I can because let's face it people get WAY to sensitive about this) they are possessing of traits that could be transgender and bigender.

Transgender in the sense that Natani WANTS to be considered male, but is actually in the process of accepting more feminine aspects. Female wanting to be male but transitioning to be male.

Bigender (not hermaphrodite) as Natani currently behaves and in some degree accepts being both genders.

So really Natani is just whatever they want to be. If we REALLY want to stir the pot we could call them an augr. At least I am thinking that is the correct term. Been a while.

And for reference I am actually referring to the term Alex is called by in the Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard series by Rick Riordan.
And as I said only if we REALLY want to stir the pot.

My (probably downvoted unto oblivion) two cents.

I really didn't know there was this huge firestorm of debate surrounding this character... I just drew a Patron request of a character they liked, and wanted the trans flag as an umbrella... I don't read TK, and I just simply asked Tom myself what to refer to Natani as.

I don't mind drawing them, but if it always opens up this drama, it really makes me not want to.

fluff-kevlar said:
I really didn't know there was this huge firestorm of debate surrounding this character... I just drew a Patron request of a character they liked, and wanted the trans flag as an umbrella... I don't read TK, and I just simply asked Tom myself what to refer to Natani as.

I don't mind drawing them, but if it always opens up this drama, it really makes me not want to.

I hope to God the problem isn’t actual transphobia. Cus if that’s what the problem is here, then we need to grow up.

I think the issue is “does a magical personality change warrant the definition of transgender”. Whether or not she’s trans by definition, fuck it, she should be able to promote it regardless.

But in the end if you asked Tom and Tom said she’s trans, then she’s trans. End of question.

charliebright said:
I hope to God the problem isn’t actual transphobia. Cus if that’s what the problem is here, then we need to grow up.

I think the issue is “does a magical personality change warrant the definition of transgender”. Whether or not she’s trans by definition, fuck it, she should be able to promote it regardless.

But in the end if you asked Tom and Tom said she’s trans, then she’s trans. End of question.

This.

charliebright said:
I hope to God the problem isn’t actual transphobia. Cus if that’s what the problem is here, then we need to grow up.

I think the issue is “does a magical personality change warrant the definition of transgender”. Whether or not she’s trans by definition, fuck it, she should be able to promote it regardless.

But in the end if you asked Tom and Tom said she’s trans, then she’s trans. End of question.

Well

That settles it

I mean this feels like a 'death of the author' problem but usually if the author steps in then I won't question it.

At least if it makes sense. Anyone who knows what I'm talking about knows who I mean.

charliebright said:
It’s interesting. I’d always thought presenting Nat as Trans was odd to me as well, I had no idea the sentiment was shared this widely.

The reason that makes me question it is different to yall. When she had to magically restore part of her soul using Zen, one of the pieces she got from him was his Male mentality and identity. The part that makes her want to be male literally isn’t part of her, just “software” she’s borrowing from her brother.

I didn't know it at the time, but Natani was literally my first exposure to transgenderism, several years before I learned it was a real-world thing. And I'm not gonna lie, even after his writing got gud after ~2012 Tom's presentation has been a jumbled mess. I can't remember the exact plot timeline and I'm too lazybusy to re-read the comic right now (if the 2K wiki could cite its info, that'd be greeeeeeat), but Natani's identity has always left me confused: before the soul-shatter was explained the "I know I've got boobs but I'm really a man!" read like self-denial and/or keeping up the mask to which they'd grown accustomed; afterward, like you, I read it as an artificial imprint they had adopted.

Which might have been fine in its own right, except then Tom starts making these retcons about how Natani was already flirting with gender fluidity before the incident, and that knocks into the Youngtani sequence reinforcing the original feminine mind, and I just can't figure out the "authentic" self that's supposed to synthesize from everything, much less how it manifests. I have friends and family that are trans, some of whom have been soul-searching for years, so I know gender fluidity is real; but I don't know what Tom's background is, and based on how rough the early comic reads, I suspect he later got input from the trans community, and the retcons are him backpedaling to make the character read more true-to-life.

Which would also have been fine, but that Nora's genderbending shenanigans undermine the gravity of Natani's theme. Tom is a much better writer now than when he started, and as I've said before a rewrite of the early chapters would correct for the teething troubles, but his penchant for fanservice in the main comic is an enduring stumbling block to its more mature elements.

Aside: Given your nick and avvie I'd be remiss not to mention Original Life channeling similar themes (and similar hiccups), though my beef with Naylor is his deterministic view of psychology and gender roles (girls are weak and flighty, therefore Charlie must engage Male Brain to muster the courage to romance Janie, cough cough butch lesbian stereotype).

yugijak said:
Natani is an interesting case as ... they are possessing of traits that could be transgender and bigender.

Transgender in the sense that Natani WANTS to be considered male, but is actually in the process of accepting more feminine aspects. Female wanting to be male but transitioning to be male.

Bigender (not hermaphrodite) as Natani currently behaves and in some degree accepts being both genders.

So really Natani is just whatever they want to be.

IIRC the Wolves vaguely allude to Native America, in which case Natani is a literal example of two-spirit in action.

fluff-kevlar said:
I don't mind drawing them, but if it always opens up this drama, it really makes me not want to.

I will never understand why the same website that slobbers over futa fantasy will yet mob shows of LGBTQ support. When in doubt, remember Brian Blessed.

Christ almighty, what is wrong with some of you people. Natani is canonically trans, get over it. This picture is from the day before what's currently going on in-comic.

It's not political to be transgender, people just exist sometimes. I swear, it's like that one screenshot of a guy complaining Animal Crossing was getting political because people could decide their skin tone - It ain't that deep chief.

fluff-kevlar said:
I really didn't know there was this huge firestorm of debate surrounding this character... I just drew a Patron request of a character they liked, and wanted the trans flag as an umbrella... I don't read TK, and I just simply asked Tom myself what to refer to Natani as.

I don't mind drawing them, but if it always opens up this drama, it really makes me not want to.

It's not that you drew this character. It's the trans pride umbrella thats setting people on both sides off.

IIRC the Wolves vaguely allude to Native America, in which case Natani is a literal example of two-spirit in action.

Forgot about that. Good observation.

epantsimator said:
IIRC the Wolves vaguely allude to Native America, in which case Natani is a literal example of two-spirit in action.

Side tangent: It seems the term "two-spirit" was invented in 1990 to replace a more offensive word, but it's a broad term that basically encompasses any LGBTQ tradition or terminology across any tribes across North America. As far as I can tell it doesn't have any cultural significance to any specific tribes.

fluff-kevlar said:
I really didn't know there was this huge firestorm of debate surrounding this character... I just drew a Patron request of a character they liked, and wanted the trans flag as an umbrella... I don't read TK, and I just simply asked Tom myself what to refer to Natani as.

I don't mind drawing them, but if it always opens up this drama, it really makes me not want to.

This will always happen. If you didn't know that, and I don't know how you couldn't, then welcome to the Twokinds section of any art website. Natani's piss-poor presentation, retcons, and wishy-washy argument has left this garbage fire burning YEARS after Tom had a chance to put it out and start taking shit serioulsy.

epantsimator said:
but his penchant for fanservice in the main comic is an enduring stumbling block to its more mature elements.

You can do fan service and cover serious matters in the same comic, but you have to be a better writer than Tom even dreams of being. Yeah, he's better now than when he started, he's still not very good.

Pretty cool, I love FK's style

aricellithefur said:
Are these people whining transphobic or something, or am I misunderstanding?... 😳

I think you're missing something.
Its less transphobia and more about how Nat's actually presented in most cases. Natani is just... not a good example of a transgender character. Their argument has never been made solid in canon ("I wanted to be seen this way" in a situation where being seen another would result in probable rape and definite death of them and their only remaining family) and what is sure is that it only came out after severe damage to their soul, including the part that menifests their personality.

Add to that, what we've seen of "Young Natani" hasn't made Nat's argument any stronger (in a lot of readers eyes, it undermines what validity there is in the transgender argument) and Young Nat's behavior only further serves to make things divisive, coming off more as a typical Tomboy than anything else.

The whole argument trying to reduce anyone who doesn't see Nat as transgender thing also comes off as needlessly reductive. There's an argument to be had here over reader interpretation, and if the author is doing a good job presenting the character they way he NOW says he want's them to be. Because if you look back on things, Nat was never originally intended to be Transgender, by things Tom has said over the years. And now its on HIM to pull the weight of the argument if that's how he wants things to be, by how he presents Nat in-canon. Not what he says on Twitter, or IRC, not what he puts in descriptions of his Patreon commissions, in the comic. And for a lot of us, he hasn't done that.

So when Fluff gets payed to make this stuff, it comes off as someone trying to jump the gun, or scream into the 'net that "this is how it is/should be", and nobody likes that.

sarnak said:
I think you're missing something.
Its less transphobia and more about how Nat's actually presented in most cases. Natani is just... not a good example of a transgender character. Their argument has never been made solid in canon ("I wanted to be seen this way" in a situation where being seen another would result in probable rape and definite death of them and their only remaining family) and what is sure is that it only came out after severe damage to their soul, including the part that menifests their personality.

Add to that, what we've seen of "Young Natani" hasn't made Nat's argument any stronger (in a lot of readers eyes, it undermines what validity there is in the transgender argument) and Young Nat's behavior only further serves to make things divisive, coming off more as a typical Tomboy than anything else.

The whole argument trying to reduce anyone who doesn't see Nat as transgender thing also comes off as needlessly reductive. There's an argument to be had here over reader interpretation, and if the author is doing a good job presenting the character they way he NOW says he want's them to be. Because if you look back on things, Nat was never originally intended to be Transgender, by things Tom has said over the years. And now its on HIM to pull the weight of the argument if that's how he wants things to be, by how he presents Nat in-canon. Not what he says on Twitter, or IRC, not what he puts in descriptions of his Patreon commissions, in the comic. And for a lot of us, he hasn't done that.

So when Fluff gets payed to make this stuff, it comes off as someone trying to jump the gun, or scream into the 'net that "this is how it is/should be", and nobody likes that.

Ah, okay, thanks for taking that time to explain. I forgot about this comment😅

Wait the umbrella is a trans rights flag? I saw red white and blue and just thought 'Murica.

I prefer my headcanon. Patriotic Natani. Bring your worst downvotes.

Controversy

kaigoskrzynsky said:
Retarded it was explained that her whole pretending to be male was cuz of 2 things: past trauma and sharing soul with her brother and through story when she fell in love with Keith she started to accept her true self a GIRL

because trans men never ever have gay relationships

marcus_furelius said:
Why are some people so insistent on having a character who only views herself as male because of literal intensive brain damage be a posterboygirl for trans rights?

Himself*

kappaz-doggo11011 said:
Trans women are ALWAYS women.
Trans men are ALWAYS men.
Non-binary people are ALWAYS non-binary.

It's NOT that hard to understand, yo.

-Dilly/Dylan

Facts

why do people get so ticked off at a flag lmao. Literally the characters just trans, blacklist the character and move on if you really hate him that much

The E621 comments, everyone.

kappaz-jaxson11011 said:
Trans women are ALWAYS women.
Trans men are ALWAYS men.
Non-binary people are ALWAYS non-binary.

It's NOT that hard to understand, yo.

-Dilly/Dylan

No.

I love that he is quite literally under the trans umbrella.

turtlemanster said:
Always weird to find the places transphobes hide away in. Somebody who is biologically female and presents in every part of his life as male is, in fact, transgender. If you want to be the weirdo who insists on looking in somebody's pants before you'll just call them something that's fine, just know that's why people avoid you

Somebody who is biologically female and presents in every part of his life as male is, in fact, transgender.

[/i]

That is invalidating to women who do not act feminine, "present" describes behavior if I remember right.

Irl the author changed his mind on the issue.

In universe the thing with Natani, and this might a weird metaphor, reminds me of debating if someone who had sex while drunk as hell would have had sex when sober: Natani iirc lived in such a misogynistic hellscape (and then got injected with a male brain telepathically) that it would impossible to know what was survival mechanism and internalized misogyny and what would have happened otherwise without those factors.

kappaz-jaxson11011 said:
Trans women are ALWAYS women.
Trans men are ALWAYS men.
Non-binary people are ALWAYS non-binary.

It's NOT that hard to understand, yo.

-Dilly/Dylan

I can't believe you would be so phobic against genderfluid people

I actually support genderfluid people, just so you know.

Trans rights, non-binary rights and intersex rights are ALWAYS human rights. Seriously!!!

To Furmarine:

I actually still support genderfluid people.

In fact, you can find posts with instances of the genderfluid pride flag in my favorites page.

Also, I've NEVER said anything hateful.

Sincerely, Dilly.